S3 EP03: Dental School Debt: You’ve Got Options

Wright: [00:00:00] This episode was recorded live at SmileCon 2023. Enjoy. I'm about to call out the two most dreaded words for new dentists: student debt. Hello. Hello, everyone. I am Dr. ArNelle Wright. 

Ioannidou: [00:00:15] and I'm Dr. Effie Ioannidou and this is Dental Sound Bites. Today, we are going to show you some of the best ways for dentists to manage and get out of student debt.

Announcer: [00:00:29] From the American Dental Association, this is Dental Sound Bites. Created for dentists by dentists. Ready? Let's dive right into real talk on dentistry's daily wins and sticky situations.

Wright: [00:00:45] So here's some sobering statistics. The total amount of outstanding student loan debt in the United States is around 1.76 trillion. So that's... Trillion with a T guys. With the average dental school grad carrying close to $300,000 in loans, if not more.

Ioannidou: [00:01:05] So that's why this becomes like a very important topic for us and for the community, right?

So we have the right guests today and our guests, joining us today from ASDA is Shafa Nathani. And Janet Fields from Laurel Road, an expert at Laurel Roads.

Wright: [00:01:23] Yes, ma'am. Welcome. Welcome. 

Ioannidou: [00:01:26] Welcome ladies.

Nathani: [00:01:28] Hi guys. Thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited to be here. I'm Shafa. I'm the national president of the American Student Dental Association.

So I'm currently a fourth year. Thank you. Thank you. 

Ioannidou: [00:01:39] President. How proud. I know. Right?

Nathani: [00:01:41] Thank you. 

Ioannidou: [00:01:41] Proud president. 

Nathani: I'm honored for the role, the position, the opportunity. I'm a fourth year at Tufts Dental right now in Boston, Massachusetts. But home is Orlando, Florida. So it's good to be here.

Wright: [00:01:52] Nice. Welcome back.

Welcome home. Yeah. And Janet Fields from Laurel road. Hello. Tell us a little bit about yourself. Wellcome to the show.

Fields: [00:01:58] Thank you so much for having me. I'm Janet Fields. I'm Director of Business Development at Laurel road. We are a division of KeyBank and we're most known for helping people navigate their student loan debt.

Wright: [00:02:11] There you go. 

Ioannidou: [00:02:12] So it's very important to make sure that our listeners know that the ADA Member Advantage has endorsed the Laurel Roads company and as a resource for supporting student loans refinancing. Yeah. 

Right. 

Wright: [00:02:25] Yeah. Very, very important for you all to know.

Fields: [00:02:28] And we bring one more solution to this conference this year, which is we acquired a company called GradFin.

Okay. Gradfin is known for their consultations, their student loan consultations. And every ADA member has the opportunity to book a free 30 minute consultation to help personalize their own student loan repayment strategy. And we'll talk a little bit more about that later in our discussion. 

Wright: [00:02:53] Oh, let's do it.

Let's do it.

Ioannidou: [00:02:55] Which is great. Meaning every ADA member at any stage of their career, as long as they have loans, right? 

Fields: [00:03:00] Correct. 

Ioannidou: [00:03:00] That's great.

Wright: [00:03:01] For some dental students, loans have a big impact on their career path. And I know, Dr. Effie, you're in academia, so do you see this a lot with your students?

Ioannidou: [00:03:09] Of course. I think that projected number of student loans, right? After graduation defines their choice of residency, career path, you name it.

Yeah. 

Wright: [00:03:19] So, Shafa. Tell us a little bit about your experience with, like, just some of the chatter and things that you hear with people in your class, you know, student loan debt and things like that. Some of the things that are pressing issues. 

Nathani: [00:03:29] Of course. Yeah. So I mean, most dental students are well aware of the crushing effects of dental student debt, right?

It's something that we take on because we want to further our education. But that being said, it's also very scary because we don't know the resources that we have. We don't know what information, where to go to seek that information. And so it's tough as a student who is a first generation immigrant myself, I'm aware of the power of money and the great responsibility that comes with it.

And that I need to be careful when I'm taking out these loans, and I have upwards of $400,000 in loans. And what's going to happen upon graduation? How do I go off paying those loans? Who am I supposed to reach out to for support? And questions like that, that dental students, unfortunately, it's not the exposure we get in our dental education.

So where do we go? Who do we ask? You know? And for me, I think dentists go out there. We're serving our communities. We're doing the best we can. We're doing our part that unwavering support should be returned to us as well. 

Wright: [00:04:24] Yeah. And, you know, I want to piggyback off something that you were talking about.

So do you feel like the number that you shared? So upwards of $400,000, is that helping to shape your career choice or your track after dental school? Can you talk to us a little bit more about that? 

Nathani: [00:04:39] Most definitely. I mean, even in dental school, I'm having two jobs right now to make sure that I can make ends meet on my personal needs, because I don't want to take out even more to take on taking care of rent, take care of food, you know?

Ioannidou: [00:04:52] How do you have time for two jobs?

Wright:I would like to know.

Nathani: [00:04:56] I'll tell you, 5 a.m. wake up calls. 

Wright: [00:04:58] Wow. 

Nathani: [00:04:58] But you know, I'm so fortunate that there are jobs out there that offer me that flexibility, but at the same time, does it affect my mental health? My emotional well being? Of course, you know. And so when I sit there as a fourth year now trying to decide, am I going to do residency?

Well, I have to think, do I have the privilege to do residency? Am I going to be able to maybe take some time off to catch a breath and maybe not get that burnout? But do I have the ability to do so? And when I see the $400,000 upwards, it just seems like it's like a huge no. 

Wright: [00:05:29] Yeah.

Ioannidou: [00:05:30] You brought up the amount and ArNelle analyzed it very well, but I'm thinking that it really, it's not only the post-dental school choices that you have to make, but thinking about the projected amount, people make choices about the right dental school to go to, right?

Nathani: [00:05:44] A hundred percent. 

Ioannidou: [00:05:45] I was looking at the ADEA Dean's handbook, and it's interesting that overall than the students, it seems like the number one priority for selecting a school is the tuition.

But when you look at the underrepresented minorities. The number one criterion for selecting a school is the reputation of the school, not the financial burden, which can be explained, for sure, that it's so multifactorial. So, can you speak a little bit about this? Because you are, you know, you're at Tufts.

Nathani: [00:06:17] Yeah, that's right. Great program.

Ioannidou: [00:06:18] Fantastic program. 

Nathani: I mean, I remember growing up and this is not, this is real. My middle school password on my laptop was Harvard. Um, you know, just because the reputation that that school held and that was kind of the goal that I wanted to attain for myself because my parents, even to this day, they work crazy hours making ends meet to make sure their kids kind of have whatever they need, you know, to succeed in their careers.

So I just knew that education is going to be the answer to solve these problems so that I can have financial stability. And so when I was looking at those schools and those programs, I wanted a program that had the reputation that when that degree comes out and my name is printed underneath, the school's name should carry me to that next step.

And it has. But unfortunately also with the huge price tag. 

Wright: [00:07:01] Yeah. So Janet, we want to hear from you too. Like what's the number one thing that students and new grads should know and do? Like as you hear Shafa tell her story and tell, like, her number of like, upwards number of debt. Like what are some things that you think students should know and do?

Fields: [00:07:17] Yeah. Well, first of all, at Laurel Road, we really focus on dentists and doctors. That's a big focus for us. So it may seem like a daunting number to you, $400,000, but we see upwards of, you know, $500,000, $800,000. I mean, we see a lot of numbers, you know, at Laurel Road. And so I think that the message that we have for you is that there are strategies.

There is hope. So stay focused, you know, in your studies. But when it comes time to repay those loans, there are a lot of options and strategies. And we'll talk a little bit more about that.

Ioannidou: [00:07:55] The Department of Education COVID-19 student loan forbearance program, the payment freeze ended in October, right?

Wright: [00:08:02] Yes. I got that notification. 

Ioannidou: [00:08:04]: That's right. And the loan interest started accruing. Yes. Yeah, it's funny. So Janet, what options do people have? 

Fields: [00:08:14]  That's a great question. And it is a big shock for many people because there's been many people that haven't even had to pay their student loan because of the three year freeze.

So the options really fall into a couple of categories. There is income driven repayment options, which structures your payment on a percentage of discretionary income. And what's exciting about that is there's been a new revision to the same program, which reduces your payment to 5 percent from 10 percent of your discretionary income to five.

And that's going to be coming into effect this coming year. So a lot of opportunity for young dentists to take advantage of an income driven repayment option. 

Wright: [00:09:01] Is that IDR? 

Fields: [00:09:02] Yes, that's right. Another option if you're working for a non-for-profit is public service loan forgiveness. So that's another option to be considered. There's also refinancing. That's an option to be considered. Caution right now, we're in a rising interest rate environment. So where refinancing was very popular, let's say three years ago, you really have to look at that option to see if that makes sense right now, given the current interest rate environment.

Wright: Can you tell us what should we be expecting when we're thinking about refinancing? If someone wants to take that option, knowing, like, the climate right now from a financial perspective, what kind of conversations, what questions would be wise for them to ask when they're having these discussions? 

Fields: Yeah. There's a couple of questions that I would propose for people, which is first of all, understand what loans you have. Are they federal loans or are they private loans? Typically private loans will come with a higher interest rate. So understand what loans you have. Also understand what your interest rates are.

I talked to a lot of people. They know they have loans, but they kind of want to not necessarily really unpack what those interest rates are, but know, you know what they are. And then finally, understand if you can take advantage of some of the federal loan programs. And what I'd interject here is this is where it's a great opportunity, even as a student, to take advantage of that 30-minute free consultation so that you can figure out your best repayment strategy.

Wright: [00:10:39] Nice. Thank you so much for that. 

Ioannidou: [00:10:40] Not everyone can start repaying October 1st, right?

Wright: [00:10:44] I think not everyone is due on October 1st.I think it just varies on when the due date, like, starts back up. 

Ioannidou: [00:10:50] Right. 

Wright: [00:10:51] Yeah. 

Ioannidou: [00:10:51] And so there should be this, this is like a little bit of chaos. 

Fields: [00:10:55] Right. 

Ioannidou: [00:10:56] So how should people navigate this and how should people think about it?

Fields: [00:11:00] Well, there's something important that people should know. And this would be for Federal loans that the Department of Education has instituted a ramp up period and during that ramp up period of time, which would go from October 1st to the end of September 30th in 2024. If you're struggling and you have to miss a payment, it should not be reflected on your credit report or reported to the credit agencies.

But what I would do is if you're struggling, I would strongly recommend that you reach out to your loan servicer and really discuss your strategy with them. But, um, if you go to the Department of Education .gov, you'll see the specifics of the ramp up plan and just understand, you know, you have some rights, you know, or you have some flexibility as repayment begins.

Ioannidou: [00:11:53] So it's like a little bit of a break of almost a year, right? 

Fields: [00:11:57] Correct, yes.

Wright: [00:11:58] Yeah. So it's like easy on, you know, kind of ease back into paying the loans.

Fields: [00:12:02]: But I would strongly encourage you to Yes. contact your loan servicer and not just assume, do you know, that your credit isn't being impacted. So just, I always just recommend contacting your loan servicer. 

Ioannidou: [00:12:13] But it's, it's really tricky because is it, or is it not impacted?

Wright: [00:12:17] You know, I'm pretty sure there's some impact there. There is some impact. Now, before we toss it back over to you Shafa, um, Janet, we do want to ask for you to go in just a little bit more details about the repayment option. So the public service loan forgiveness, the private student loan refinancing, if you can just give us any other tips, just for our listeners, because this is a big topic and a lot of people are probably very stressed about this.

Fields: [00:12:43] Right. 

Wright: [00:12:44] So. If you can just give us a little bit more on those. 

Fields: [00:12:46] Exactly. So like I said, the income driven repayment option sets your loan payment as a percentage of your discretionary income. And there are different options to consider. And this new program, which is the SAVE program, we're very optimistic that a lot of individuals will be able to reduce their repayment.

Wright: [00:13:06] Is it save, S-A-V-E? 

Fields: [00:13:08] That's correct. 

Wright: [00:13:09]  All right 

Fields: [00:13:09] So we're really optimistic about that, reducing people's monthly payments. Public service loan forgiveness is an option if you're working in the, with the right employer and that would be 501c, non-for-profit. So if you're working in that type of environment, public service loan forgiveness could be the right option for you.

The other option out there is private student loan refinancing. Like I said, caution people to check their rates because we're in a rising interest rate environment, but that could be an option for higher interest rate loans, such as a private loan, which typically comes with a higher interest rate than a federal loan.

Wright: [00:13:47] It's definitely something to think about. 

Announcer Ad: [00:13:50] Laurel Road is committed to serving the financial needs of dentists. Which includes helping you find the best path forward for your student loans. Laurel Road now offers free 30-minute consultations with one of their GradFin student loan specialists. Get the facts and develop a personalized plan by scheduling your consultation today at laurelroad.com/ADA. Laurel Road and GradFin are brands of KeyBank National Association. 

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Ioannidou: [00:14:47] Shafa, what are your thoughts about this whole conversation?

Nathani: [00:14:50] What I liked that I heard, I kept hearing the word options, options, options.

So I'm glad that there are options out there for students for borrowers, because no two people have the same experience when it comes to loans. You know, and so I'm happy to hear that. However, having the opportunity to be here right now with you, questions that my classmates and I have are what can we do now, being in school, ensuring that we transition into that post grad life successfully?

Fields: [00:15:16] I would say, understand your loans.

There's been so many times I've been at conferences where people don't know how many loans they have, whether or not they're federal, whether or not they're private. I would say understanding what, you know, I think sometimes when you take on this loan, you don't want to look at it. So before graduation, really unpack what, what do I have?

How much do I owe? What type of loans are there? Also be mindful of your credit score, you know, and that's something you can control. Because some of these options, particularly refinancing, you'll get a better rate if you have a better credit score. So understanding your credit score could impact a refinancing rate.

So that's something to be mindful of as well. 

Ioannidou: [00:16:00] Janet, can I just interject for a minute? Because I have hard time to understand, like a 22-, 24-year-old person, with probably, most likely zero or very limited employment history and perhaps one credit card or two, depending on how generous the parents were.

What kind of credit score do you expect? Like, you know, can you speak a little bit about this? 

Fields: [00:16:28] Sure. I mean, there's different components of a credit score. One is, you know, do you pay your bills on time? So, there's things that you can control. The other component is utilization of your credit limit.

So you're going to want to make sure you keep utilization at, or lower than, 30%. So there are things that you can do that can actually impact your credit score, even with limited employment experience. When you're paying bills, you know, all of these things can impact your credit score. So it's just something to be mindful of not to, as a student, maybe rack up your full credit limit, because that will have an adverse impact on your credit score. But just some of the things that you can control, just to be mindful of that.

And understanding what loans you have, because I see a lot of people coming out of school that don't know exactly what they have. So I think that's smart strategy as well.

Wright: [00:17:26] Do you offer, does the company offer any coaching or any type of financial planning? Like earlier on, do you engage with students before they're about to graduate?

Fields: [00:17:36] We can do a consult. When someone's in, and for a student, and then what will happen is we'll just kind of strategize what your repayment options can look like once you graduate. So we can do a consult. We also have a lot of resources out on Laurel Road to really help people with different topics.

So, that's something if you go to the laurelroad.com/ADA landing page, there's just a lot of bite-sized information there that you can consume, like tips if you're going to be a first-time home buyer. So we have a lot of financial resources. Financial literacy is very important to the ADA.

And so we're constantly adding resources and content, and we'll be working with the ADA as we develop new resources as well. 

Wright: [00:18:24] Yeah. Your question, Effie, made me think of that. When I go back to my journey, I'm like, uh, my parents didn't send me off to college with a credit card. Like I had to kind of figure it all out myself. So that was really thought provoking. So I'm glad you brought that point up. 

Ioannidou: [00:18:38] Yeah. And so far, so complicated, right? From what Janet speaks on: the credit score, the numbers, the type of loan, the repayment structure. I mean, so many. How competent do you guys feel as you come closer to graduation, and do you think that this really should be a requirement in dental school as part of your educational package?

Nathani: [00:19:03] I mean, I'm seven months away from graduation and goodness, I would love it. I would love that it would be included a part of our dental education. Because everything that was just discussed, most of it, 90 percent of it, is brand new information. You know, and you're right. The average student isn't equipped by, you know, family, friends, or whatever support that they have of, okay, this is what you need to do to ensure that you're set up to, to make these payments.Okay. That you have a credit score. And you walk out of there and it kind of hits you because they're waiting on the other side. 

Wright: [00:19:34] It's already there. 

Nathani: [00:19:35] It's there. So it's, yeah, it's crazy to hear. And it's information that we kind of need to know, especially. And I think senior year is also too late.

Why are we not starting early on when they're starting dental school? So they're aware because we're signing the paperwork to pick up the loans. We have that power. But why is no one offering us the education that comes along with it? That, hey, this is what you're signing, this is what you're doing. You know?

And I think it's important.

Ioannidou: [00:19:57] And I think the moment that you sign this paperwork, I don't think any of you know the significance of this, what this means for your future. 

Nathani: [00:20:04] Absolutely not.

Ioannidou: [00:20:05] What this means for your residency choice. For your career path choice. You can be dreaming that you will be a teacher one day. But you haven't really looked into the numbers yet. 

Nathani: [00:20:14] Absolutely. No. Yeah. I mean, I'm fortunate that I have parents who have been, they've seen the worst of days right in this country. That's, they came here with a dream and they built up the life that we have today. So when I'm signing those papers, they're looking over my shoulder and they're like, hey, Shafa, this is what this means, you know?

But then I got to school and I was talking to my friends and they're like, what do you mean? Like credit score? And I'm like, oh my goodness. This is crazy. We're seven months away and no one is prepared. No one is prepared for like, what's about to hit them? 

Ioannidou: [00:20:43]  That's quite stressful. 

Wright: [00:20:45] Definitely something to think about.

Ioannidou: [00:20:46] But you see, we hooked you up with the right person.

Nathani: [00:20:48] I'm so glad. Listen, I'm glad I'm sharing a couch with you. That's for sure. 

Fields: [00:20:53] Well, we're going to get you a consultation before the end of this conference.

Nathani: [00:20:56] I was going to say, I've got reading material now for the plane ride back home. And I've got an appointment that I need to make with you. So, um, check, check. 

Ioannidou: [00:21:04] It’s really a very individualized approach, right? Each of us has a different needs, different expectations, different situation, different financial status. So it's very important for people that listen to us to understand that this is not a recipe. That's for everybody.

Wright: [00:21:23] There's no one size fits all. 

Ioannidou: [00:21:24] Absolutely not. People need to understand that this is like very, very personalized. 

Fields: [00:21:31] Yeah. And that's why we acquired GradFin. Because there are solutions out there where you try to figure out your path through, you know, inputting it into a computer. We feel that we need this personalized approach. You need to talk to somebody.

They have to understand, are you married? Are you filing jointly? Are you, you know, there's all these questions, and it's complex. I think the one thing we learned from this discussion today is how complex our student loan system is. So bringing this personalized approach, I think, to the members here at the ADA is, is really important.

Wright: [00:22:09] Yeah. And GradFin is a company that specializes in student loan consultations to help borrowers manage their debt. So we want you all to check out how all our listeners can get one on one help. 

Fields: [00:22:20] What I can chime in here, there's this custom landing page, which is Laurel Road.com/ADA. So pretty simple.

And once you get to that landing page, there'll be an easy way for you to sign up for that free consultation. 

Wright: [00:22:36] Okay. Before we wrap, we also want you to discuss a little bit more about loan forgiveness. So are there any, like, tricks or anything that you can tell us about how our listeners can navigate that whole journey?

Fields: [00:22:47] Yes. And this is where our GradFin experts can really help you. But on a high level, for public service loan forgiveness, your loans would get forgiven after 120 qualifying payments. And like I said, we can help you work through that. For income driven repayment plans, loans would be forgiven after 20 or 25 years.

So, like I said, experts at GradFin can help you, you know, map out what your strategy could be. And we can talk to you about what your forgiveness could potentially look like, because historically GradFin has forgiven quite a few, record number, of loans. So it's really optimistic, really promising, to know that they've had so much success under their belt.

Ioannidou: [00:23:34] For students that are in dual degree programs, DMD/PhD or DDS/PhD, there are also options for repayment loans, loan repayment programs through the NIH, right? So let's not forget that if you are in this path and then you'll find a career pathway in biomedical research, there is this option too. 

Nathani: [00:23:53] Oh, I'm loving how we're saying options. It's made me feel better. 

Wright: [00:23:57] Yeah. And I'm actually glad that you're on this couch with me too, because like in academia, if we, we wouldn't have known about these options without you being here. 

Ioannidou: [00:24:05] For sure. 

Wright: [00:24:06] So, Shafa, do you have any more questions for our expert today? Any final comments? Anything that you want to share?

Nathani: [00:24:13] I just want to say thank you so much for spending time with us today. I think it's been absolutely insightful and if anything, I'm leaving this couch feeling a lot lighter, a lot more confident. So I'm excited for that consultation. We'll be talking soon.

Fields: [00:24:25] Well, and congratulations on your education.

Nathani: [00:24:27] Thank you. 

Fields: [00:24:29] And your approaching graduation. That’s very exciting for you.

Nathani: [00:24:30] Thank you very much. Thank you so much. 

Announcer: [00:24:33] On the next Dental Sound Bites.

Wright: [00:24:34] Dr. Mina Ghorbani joins us to dive into the fascinating world of A.I. and dentistry. We're taking a look at the new applications and innovations shaping the industry today, and the advancements we can look forward to in the future.

Ioannidou: [00:24:49] So what are you doing after graduation? What are you plans? So I can start calculating your loans past $400,000.

Nathani: [00:25:02] Yes, please. So I'm actually from Orlando, Florida, right? But I will not be returning. So I am going to be moving to Houston, Texas. I'm going to be working for an office as an associate. I'm very excited setting down roots there. So it's a new chapter that's, you know, being planned for me and looking at apartments and, I'm just looking forward to it.

Ioannidou: [00:25:21] What made you choose the location? 

Nathani: [00:25:23] There was heavy discussion and, about a four year investment that kind of went into it. My partner and I, he's based out there in Houston. And so it was super important for him to kind of make sure that we go back. And so he graduated dental school. He's already started working there. And when I visited last ADA SmileCon, I fell in love. So I was like, hey, let's do it. So we're headed to Houston. 

Ioannidou: [00:25:44] Yeah.

Wright: [00:25:47] That's awesome. 

Ioannidou: [00:25:48] That's great. Thank you so much. Both of you. This was an incredible conversation. Very educating for us too, right? 

Wright: Absolutely. Yeah. I was so glad that we had you on the show. Thank you all for being here. 

Nathani: [00:25:58] Thank you guys. You guys are the best. It was fun chatting with you. 

Wright: [00:26:01] If you have anything, any organizations, please just plug those.

Like, if you want to give a shout out, like tell everybody where they can find you. 

Fields: [00:26:08] Yeah. You can find us at laurelroad.com/ADA and that's where you can access your free student loan consultation. 

Wright: [00:26:18] Awesome. 

Nathani: [00:26:19] And if you want to find out what all the cool dental students are up to, follow us on @dentalstudents on Instagram because it's popping over there.

Ioannidou: [00:26:27] How many followers do you have? 

Nathani: [00:26:28] Oh my God. Thousands, girl. We’ve got over 26,000 members. So we have fun on there. Yeah. 

Ioannidou: [00:26:36] So we will add all those links and all these resources to the episode show notes, which will be great and very informative for our audience. Right? 

Wright: [00:26:43] Very, informative. So if you like this episode, go ahead and share it with a friend or a colleague, then subscribe to this podcast, wherever you're listening so that you can get the latest episodes.

Ioannidou: [00:26:53] And don't forget to rate us and write a review and follow us on social media, especially ArNelle.

Wright: [00:27:00] No, no, no. I'm just kind of a reflection of you guys. Don't forget that the conversation, it does continue on the ADA Member App. There will be bonus content from this episode show, and we want you to listen there.

Announcer: [00:27:14] Thank you for joining us. Dental soundbites is an American Dental Association podcast. You can also find this show, resources and more on the ADA Member App and online at ada.org/podcast.